[imaguy]

I love my husband but he is on the wrong side of the issue. The main issue here is that these women did not choose to be there, their ancestors did. Most of these women and children do not know or understand or are allowed individual freedom rights. All they know is that by the age of 16 they will be thrown into married life as a number of wives. Their sole purpose in life is to be at the mans beck and call, rear and raise children and to be the good FLD wife. Now, I do not like big government but I whole heartedly believe it is the gov'ts responisiblity to protect its people. These women and children are VICTIMS!!!! They are not afforeded the freedom of choice as they are not aware they have rights at all. These women and children are kept under lock and key they are not allowed to leave and any who try and are caught are severly punished. Polygamy is wrong, and vicitimizing women and children is wrong. If these people are educated and taught they have rights and still choose that way of life then so be it. But as of right now they need to know that there is more to life than being only one of multiple wives and making as many babies as possible.
just thought i would share my thoughts....

Imaguy's wife.....

[suzyqwerty1234]

I saw a documentary on polygamy and they said that they were using WIC, but not properly, they were cheating. Instead of saying that they were one family, each wife was claiming to be a single mom. I feel sorry for the kids and hope they find their way. I really don't care how people live as long as they don't cheat me out of my tax money or abuse anyone, especially kids. if they could get a 30 year old women to agree to be a man's 6th wife,more power to them, but they can't. They have to marry when they are 15 (and to dumb to know better).

BTW why don't I ever hear of polyandry? ha ha I might be interested in that!

[marbear]

As much as I hate Dr. Phil now, he did a lot to bring this situation to light. I did watch Dr. Phil back in the day when this all got started on his show and they used to run off the teenage boys so the old pervs would have all the young girls to themselves. Sad!

We cannot hide behind any religion to disobey the law. If we let these people marry children because they are fundamentalist Mormon, what happens when someone says they believe in human sacrifice? I am glad the government is stepping up in this situation. I do live in TX and I wish I could take one or two of these kids in to help out!

I do not agree with Mormonism, but I IN NO WAY believe that 99 percent of Mormons would think this is right. I'm Baptist and I certainly don't want to be lumped in with that crazy preacher who protests at soldier's funerals.

[marbear]

Originally Posted by suzyqwerty1234

BTW why don't I ever hear of polyandry? ha ha I might be interested in that!

Girl, you know why you never hear of POLYANDRY- I can only pick up after and cook for the one I have. I certainly can't handle MORE!!!!!!!!!! A girl only needs the air filters and lightbulbs changed so many times in one year, ya know.

[GrannyGodley]

You have all made a lot of interesting comments and shared your opinions on the issue facing those in the Texas situation. GG sees the following:

1. Child protection of the state of Texas is stepping in because of reported and assumed child abuse
2. Said abuse is reflective of the laws of the state of Texas - namely marriage is not allowed under the age of 16 even with parental consent; and also that forced marriages of underage girls is therefore child abuse (sexual).
3. Said abuse in other forms is feared for the children: incest, forced marriages, rape, beatings, and other forms of abuse.
4. I know of no law at prohibits marriage between extreme age males and females. Therefore, if a 16 (legal age in Texas) agrees to marry a 50 year old, it is permissable. Gross and unfair, but permissable.
5. The state of Texas MAY be concerned that females of all ages (miniors and age of consensus) are being forced into undesired marriages. Therefore, they are offering a "way out". I do not know that this is actually part of the current situation.
6. The fact that this religious group adheres to a compound style of living is not an issue. SO LONG AS NO ACTUAL LAWS ARE BEING BROKEN.
7. Their lack of technology or involvement in today's world though strange to the average individual does not a criminal society make them.
8. The style of the hair and clothing is not an issue, though some may make it an issue. There are many religious groups who adhere to a dress standard that is different from that of mainline America.
9. The massive number of prospective abuse cases in this situation call for drastic measures. Hence the routing of all children from the compound.
10. The women who have left have probably left to protect the children who were removed from the compound.

I would venture that anyone kindly enough to give loving shelter to these youngsters will find them:

1. Well mannered
2. Kind
3. Thoughtful
4. Helpful
5. Obedient
6. Troubled
7. Contrary to admend themselves to your style
8. Long for their previous life.

They need our concern and prayers.

[lesliec]

You're absolutely right GG!!!! I couldn't imagine any more polite and respectful young children, and just imagine if you were able to lead them to know the true Jesus!!!!
Think of the party in heaven... Jesus died for them too.

[GrannyGodley]

Amen!

[Carina]

After I read this article, I have to say that the people involved in the raid did the right thing. Abuse of women and children should not be "veiled" as religion, its just plan abuse and it makes me sick to think of how much sexual abuse these poor girls have had to endure.

Documents: Sect married girls at puberty - Yahoo! News

[QueenAngie]

I agree with you also, Granny!

It is very sad.

Who in their right mind would want your 13 - 15 year old daughter to marry a 50 yo man as his 6 - 7 th wife?

[GrannyGodley]

They are probably not considered "your" children but they belong to the group/family. If you read the information provided in the polygamy link in an earlier link of mine, it might help to understand their mind-set. Also, within some groups of this faith, in order to abide by the law of the land and also what they perceive is the law of God, they have multiple wives in duplex households, multiple households, etc. It is not a matter of competition between wives as to who is highest or best in the heirarchy but we're all in this together.

Keep in mind that multiple wives and multiple husbands are the norm in many parts of the world. There are tribes still in the mountains of Asia that live several males and females under one "tent" dwelling. They rarely know who is the father of the children when they are born.

Again: what the authorities are trying to accomplish is protection of minors under the arm of the law. This is a good thing.

Again: The right of religious freedom in this country is a precious freedom and not to be tampered with lightly.

Just pray that right will prevail and that the children will come out of this better than they were before it all began.

[marbear]

We can't let any one person's religious freedom trample another person's basic human rights. Period!

I'm just wondering what would happen if a group of women did get together and have many husbands, including young teenage boys. First off all, she could never keep up wtih the laundry. Second of all, I think the authorities would have acted more quickly. It seems like when we see an older women w/ a younger man, that makes some people nervous. As gorgeous as Demi Moore is, people made a to-do when she married a younger man, yet her ex hubby has dated a string of much younger women and nobody bats an eye...

[BStroh]

I have recently read Carolyn Jessop's book, titled Escape. She was on a while back on the Oprah show, and I checked out her book at the library. A good book, sad at times, but for her, a happy ending.

[BStroh]

A little more info, for those of you who don't know who Carolyn is, she was able to escape the life, before her 'husband' moved them all to the compound in Texas. It is her story of how life was growing up, living an arranged marriage with several other wives, and the story of how she escaped with all 8 of her children in the middle of the night. Very captivating novel.

[GrannyGodley]

Bstroh - is Carolyn's book, Escape (I think is the title), a novel or a true account?

[BStroh]

It is a true account, written by her.

[AdamsMom]

Ok, I only got to page 2 before I couldn't read thru more comments. I just wanted to chime in. The best comment I read was posted by lesliec. She is right. We can;t stand here and judge anothers religious beliefs, be it a cult or not, based on our own beliefs. That just keeps the wheel turning. Our culture is screwed up - point blank. No matter what religion/ethnicity/background/whatever you come from, there is not one person who can honestly say they are living EXACTLY the way God (or whomever they follow) is intending them to live, myself included. We all pick and choose. And, unfortunately, some people who do the picking and choosing are very persuasive and are able to brainwash others into living their way and sometimes even make them believe that their way is the right way or the only way. I, too, feel bad for the children who were abused (though I am sure not all were abused). If these girls believed in what they were doing... if they thought they were doing God's will by marrying these men and having their children at 15 and 16 y/o, then they were willing participants. Even in my religion we believe FORCING someone to marry is wrong, but people outside see a 16 y/o having an "arranged marriage" and believe she is being forced or that she does not want to. So not true. What I'm saying is from the outside looking in, people can only judge based on their own beliefs. If we were on the inside, then we may have a totally different view and see what is really going on. Society has changed but some sects/groups have not. There are still the Quakers living without technology that we have, are they wrong? No, because we don't have morals about technology! I have to stop now because Adam is waking up... but I hope I made myself clear and not so confusing as always Keep up the nice chat!

[lesliec]

My hubby and I were talking last night and I wanted to add in a couple of things that came up in our discussion...

1. These men/fathers are technically legally married to only 1 woman, their first wife. The others are "spiritual marriages", which under the law means they are really just other women these men are committing adultry with. This is exactly what goes on in a huge # of regualar American homes. There are so many men that stray away from their wives, some cheat, some wives take them back.... who knows all of the situations, but really it is something that has become a norm in our society and I'm sure everyone knows someone or some family that has been touched by infidelity.
If you take the Biblical definition of Adultry, it says that any man who lusts after another woman has committed adultry. Looking at it this way, we are all adulterers, men and women alike. None of us is free from sin.
Although this lifestyle is very different from what we are accustomed, and the way they are going about their sin is not something we have been desensitized to, it is the exact same sin that is going on all around us.

2. I read a comment somewhere about all of these women being on welfare/WIC, and that they are registering as single moms. First, I don't know if this is true. The part of me that feels tied to this culture really questions weather a group so removed from society and so against Government and our world would take resources from us, but I am going to assume that the person who made the comment had good sources on that bit of information.
Regardless, they are single mothers. These are not women who have husbands that bring their paycheck home to support them, it is first split 5, 6, or 7 ways, and then they get a little bit. These are not women whose husbands come home and sleep next to them at night, they may sleep with them once a week, and then honestly, do they really stay the whole night, or maybe just for 15 minutes. These aren't men who come home at night and play with the children and eat dinner with the family. It is not the marriage that we are accustomed to. Now, don't get me wrong my husband works seriously long hours, and I know what it is like to not have him around, so I don't want to hear from all of you on that. I am there too. My hubby leaves before the kids are up, and if I am lucky, he helps me put them to bed, but there are many days where they don't get to see him. Can you imagine the little time you get with your husband, now divide that time by 7. These are single mothers, and IF they are receiving government assistance, then they deserve it just as much as the next one on family aid. Some are on it and need it to get help. Some abuse the system, but not just these. I know you have all seen them in the stores, the ones that have all these children to get more money.
Honey, I can tell you I am right there. I am a foster parent. I do get reimbursement from the state for caring for the children in my home, but I don't get to claim them on my taxes, not that I think I should, but you know who does get to claim them? Their Biological mother. Not only does she still claim them, but she is still receiving Welfare and WIC for the babies that haven't been in her house for months.

I guess my point in all of this is, yes, this is a huge tragedy, but what is going on here is exactly what is going on in our society today, it just doesn't wear 1800's clothing and live on a secluded ranch. I definately think we need to help take care of any abuse, and neglect, but teen pregnancies are rampant in our society. The media says sex at a young age is acceptable, and our society has embraced all of these immoral acts, they just happen to look a little different.

[GrannyGodley]

I think that though many of us see the behavior of the men in this situation reprehensible in that they are sharing themselves with multiple women and calling it a "calling from God", our main concern is that the women and young girls are caught in a situation that they have no control over. Once they are born, they are taught the precepts of their particular beliefs and must abide by the leader's "declaration" or law. His word is law to them and represents God in authority. Then once they (young girls) reach puberty, they are married to whomever the authority figure of the compound declares is to marry them. This is precisely what Warren Jeffs was doing. He was forcing young girls to marry against their will and then overseeing the rape of these young girls who were married to his choice for them.

The legal system in Texas is seeking to protect the young girls from abuse (and I guess, boys, if they are subjected to forced relationships). That is why they have been removed from the compound until the situation can be sorted out and it can be deemed safe to return.

Again: protection of children is right when accomplished within the rule of law.

Again: There is a fine and tremulous line that is drawn between the law of protection and the religious freedom rights we have under the US Constitution.

Again: pray for the right outcome of this sad situation.

[bodacious]

THE BED , , , , , , , Why do they have the bed in the Temple??? On the news they said it was to consumate the marriages. The news reporter said the men from the Quarum would be there to watch. (an audience???)

Wow!!! a bed in the Temple???

[bodacious]

Originally Posted by bodacious

THE BED , , , , , , , Why do they have the bed in the Temple??? On the news they said it was to consumate the marriages. The news reporter said the men from the Quarum would be there to watch. (an audience???)

Wow!!! a bed in the Temple???

Do a google search: temple garments or mormon temple anointing for
some interesting and educational info

[Cloebird]

I just want to remind you that this just ONE spin off of the Mormon church (LDS), yes there are others. Latter-Day-Saints do not practice or support polygamy.

[marbear]

Hmm...I did the google search and wound up at Recovery from Mormonism - the Mormon Church which is a really interesting site. My church does home missions to Utah and DH works with a lot of mormons. During the big mission trip to Utah they did a sermon on mormonism and it was really eye opening. I do think that the Mormon people for the most part are really good people (but not warren jeffs!), but I do not believe what they believe.

[staviles]

I would agree that this is also not reflective of the actual LDS church..as a matter of fact, they denounced this religion a long time ago!!

As for the government coming in..I think that they had the right to do it because they felt that children's well being was at stake here...I am all for protecting the children..I myself can't see how these women would choose to go back to their husbands and not stay and fight for their children (even if it meant camping out outside the arena they are at)...I would imagine that they were given more choices than the ranch or a shelter...after all they weren't being charged with any crimes at that time...as a mother I can't imagine allowing my children to be seperated from me for any lenght of time, but I also would never put them in a position to be abused by anyone or forced to marry anyone at the tender age of 13. While this way of life may be their religion, I can't see that it is in any way (moral or religious) a good way to raise a young lady..in my eyes it is servitude to a man without choice! I reallly just pray that the best interest of the children is what is kept in mind throughout all of this and not trying to mainstream them into our society's way of thinking that they should live or be!!

[GrannyGodley]

Exerpts from today's online news article:
Polygamous-sect hearing in Texas descends into farce
Published: 4/17/08, 11:05 PM EDT
By MICHELLE ROBERTS
SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) -
...............................
By evening, only three witnesses had testified, including state child welfare investigator Angie Voss, who said women may have had children when they were minors, some as young as age 13.

Additional details on life at the ranch began to emerge as Voss testified.

She said that if one of the men fell out of favor with the FLDS, his wives and children would be reassigned to other men. The children would then identify the new man as their father. Voss said that contributed to the problem of identifying children's family links and their ages.

The judge must weigh the allegations of abuse and also decide whether it is in the children's best interest to be placed into mainstream society after they have been told all their lives that the outside world is hostile and immoral.

If the judge gives the state permanent custody of the children, the Texas child services agency will face the enormous task of finding suitable homes. It will also have to decipher brother-sister relationships so that it can try to preserve them.

Over the past two weeks, the agency has relied on volunteers to help feed the children, do their laundry and provide crafts and games for them.

Gov. Rick Perry would not say how much the case is costing the state, but said: "Does the state of Texas have the resources? Absolutely we do."
---------------------end of exerpt of article -----------------
I am so sorry for these mothers and children. But, again, I understand the position of the legal system to deal with reports of abuse and the protection of the innocent child.

[bodacious]

Originally Posted by marbear

Hmm...I did the google search and wound up at Recovery from Mormonism - the Mormon Church which is a really interesting site. My church does home missions to Utah and DH works with a lot of mormons. During the big mission trip to Utah they did a sermon on mormonism and it was really eye opening. I do think that the Mormon people for the most part are really good people (but not warren jeffs!), but I do not believe what they believe.

This is a very educational site. Thanks for sharing.