[mandiedq]

Originally Posted by imaguy

Anyways It seems like a horrible situation and it's easy to type about it in the luxury of my basement!!

So true for us all, I'm sure!

[philomena83]

The women who did not want to leave didn't have to. In the news report there were a little over 100 women who left of their own volition.

[philomena83]

I read a fascinating book a couple years ago about the Fundamentalist Mormons. There were several cases where young girls tried to escape the compound (this was in Colorado City) only to be caught, brought back, and beaten by their fifty year old husbands. Normally women have absolutely no say in who they will marry. If a man sees a woman that catches his eye, he goes to the "prophet" as he is called and asks permission to marry. The "prophet" decides what is to happen based on whether or not God tells him that it is an acceptable match.

I do agree that the government does have too much say in what we do with our lives (look at the homeschooling fiasco in California!) but when individuals are denied the right to make their own decisions about the life they will lead (sometimes by force) that is an area where the government can step in. It was upon the principle of personal freedom that our country was founded.

[lesliec]

Originally Posted by tootsie roll

Now it is up to 401 children that have been removed. My goodness.

The saddest part of this is that there is no where for them all to go. We are foster parents and have beend getting calls to see if we have room, but our house is full, not technically, but as full as we can have it and stay sane. So many people complain about all of the trouble in the world, but nobody does anything about it. Being a foster parent has been such a huge blessing in our lives.
Here is a link to the agency that we foster through.
Family Link
If you are anywehre in Texas you can get licensed through them. They are an agency of Godly Men and Women and really do have a heart for the Children they serve.
Believe it or not, this type of situation exists all over the US, not just in Texas. I would encourage you all to search your hearts and spend time praying for these people. Also, there are children everywhere who need homes, not just in this situation. I would encourage you all to look into fostering. I can guarantee you that whatever home you have to offer is better than where they are coming from.

[mjloves2shop]

I think there are going to be groups like this pop up every now and again and the can basically "claim" whatever affiliation they want but it doesn't mean they "are" what that church stands for.

So when I see negative things like this and these poor children & women, I don't think poorly of the religion as a whole ~ these are groups of people that get sucked in by charismatic leaders.

That means you can make a short visit, but don't drink the Kool-aid!

SYLWIASTA ~ good question! They must brainwash them that the children are everyones children (it takes a village...). If they are forcing 13 YO girls into arranged marriages with much older men...where are the mom's then?!?

The reporting person was 16 and was supposedly married to the 50 yo current leader. The reports said that they were looking into marriage records and birth records for the last few years involving this mow 16 yo and the man. So it sounds to me like she was forced to marry and also had a child by him. They probably took the child from her once she gave birth and she reported them. It said "records of births" involving the 16 yo so it sounds like it was multiples or more than one pregnancy. Maybe they took her first one and when they took the second she had had enough!

[bclarkcaldwell]

I totally agree with Imaguy. Big government......
Society says they are strange though....who are we to judge? No, the abuse isn't right...but who am I to judge anyone?

[philomena83]

I think the issue is that young girls are being forced into sexual relationships with men twice their age and are forced to bear their children. Child Protective Services are looking out for those girls' interests when no one else will.

[mjloves2shop]

IMAGUY ~ I am not into Government interference, but I have a 14 yo DS and an 11 yo DD. Now if I permitted my daughter to be married at 13 ~ I think my parental judgement should be of concern. Now if I allowed her to marry someone over twice her age and older than myself ~ well that just seems REALLY wrong! Let's also keep in mind they were "allowed", they were "forced" to marry.

Where are these mothers when these girls are being forced to marry? The previous leader is in prison for aiding in a rape of a young girl that was married and refused to have sex with her husband. He is also wanted in another state on 8 charges which also include incest ~ nothing is off limits for them!

Where are the mothers when these 50 YO men are having sex with their teenage nieces? This is just sick and if the mothers weren't able to protect the children then ~ why do they deserve them now? Now they are miles away from the people that don't seem to think children or relatives are off limits!

Sorry to get on a but I don't think the parents are the ones who have been violated. My daughters are 8 and 11 and if a grown man even looked at them in that way I would scratch their eyes out.

Well ~ at least we got away from the "religion" aspect of it

[mjloves2shop]

Originally Posted by philomena83

I think the issue is that young girls are being forced into sexual relationships with men twice their age and are forced to bear their children. Child Protective Services are looking out for those girls' interests when no one else will.

Exactly my point ~ you just posted it shorter and quicker

I think Child Services is a safer option! Most schools try to teach abstance and they are forcing girls to get married.

[philomena83]

I just wonder what the allure is for people that get into these sorts of communities. I mean, somewhere along the line, men and women both had to come together and say, "yes, this is what we want for ourselves and our children and our children's children." How could any woman ever be ok with the thought that she has no say over her body, and worse, that she has to stand by and watch while her daughters are married off at an early age to men old enough to be their grandfathers!

[Kcash69]

I seen a story a while back that showed where the older men forced the teen boys to leave the compond so they could have the young girls to themselves.
The abuse of the girls is way wrong but so is throwing the boys out into mainstream society without any means to care or support themselves.

[mjloves2shop]

Originally Posted by Kcash69

I seen a story a while back that showed where the older men forced the teen boys to leave the compond so they could have the young girls to themselves.
The abuse of the girls is way wrong but so is throwing the boys out into mainstream society without any means to care or support themselves.

Good point ~ were are all the young men and teen boys?!? I know my 14 yo is a cutie and always has girls calling, stopping by, you name it! But who can blame the grandpas for kicking out the young, cute, unwrinkled competition!

But seriously, the parents are doing a serious disservice to the males by raising them sheltered and then setting them to fend for themselves. You go from not knowing what a computer it one day to not being able to check out a book because you can't work the computer. And what sort of job skills do these boys have? Education? They put them out and they are homeless and without any resources.

[mjloves2shop]

Here is an interesting article from when it started in 2004:

Polygamous Sect Moves In, And Texas Town Asks 'Why?' (washingtonpost.com)

[kimmyann123]

i think these grown men use religion to hide behind so they can openly be perverts and they should be in prison..its disgusting what thier doing to these children..i want to cry again just thinking about those poor girls.

[wendy1214]

Originally Posted by philomena83

I just wonder what the allure is for people that get into these sorts of communities. I mean, somewhere along the line, men and women both had to come together and say, "yes, this is what we want for ourselves and our children and our children's children." How could any woman ever be ok with the thought that she has no say over her body, and worse, that she has to stand by and watch while her daughters are married off at an early age to men old enough to be their grandfathers!

Most people at these places- except for the originators are born there and know no other ways. They are brainwashed, and told they are doing Gods Will and will go to He** if they do not OBEY the elders in the sect. They truly believe they are doing what needs to be done so they and they children will get into heaven.

[lesliec]

Everyone is talking about how brainwashed and what ever that this Mormon society is, and I am not going to defend their beliefs, but I want you all to sit back and think about the society that we live in. We live in a society that has been brainwashed into thinking that sex before marriage is acceptable, especially if you are in "love". We are in a society that thinks it is ok to gossip. I could go on and on, but I hear my babies waking up, but really look at how morally unstable our whole culture is before you go judging one small sector. I am not defending them, but our entire culture is nothing of what our Creator wants for us.

[sylwiasta]

Originally Posted by lesliec

Everyone is talking about how brainwashed and what ever that this Mormon society is, and I am not going to defend their beliefs, but I want you all to sit back and think about the society that we live in.

I do not think that everybody here is talking about all Mormon society. We are all shocked that this group/sect is acting as it is. I was raised different but as I grew up I ve learned that there is so many different people that there always be different religions and different beliefs. But when some people take it to the extreme (diviation) that is time to complain, discuss but not the religion itself, weird people. I just do not want anybody here to get their feelings hurt. Am I right?
kwim?

[Carina]

Religion aside, this is about the safety of women and children who basically sound like they are slaves. They are married off and become pregnant at a young age thus giving them little opportunity to get an education and become their own person. Another issue besides the sickness of all the older men marrying these young girls is that they are basically living off of welfare--so we as taxpayers are funding these children and women who have no other means of support.

Once these people are in this community they are taught not to trust outsiders so they continue for generations doing the same thing. They are so removed from everyday life that we know, I am afraid a lot of them will go running back since they know no other way of life. Totally sad.

[dianescraps]

Originally Posted by lesliec

The saddest part of this is that there is no where for them all to go. We are foster parents and have beend getting calls to see if we have room, but our house is full, not technically, but as full as we can have it and stay sane. So many people complain about all of the trouble in the world, but nobody does anything about it. Being a foster parent has been such a huge blessing in our lives.

I have been a foster parent here in PA and my first thought was the complete overload that this must be putting on the TX foster care system

[sylwiasta]

Originally Posted by Carina

Religion aside, this is about the safety of women and children who basically sound like they are slaves. They are married off and become pregnant at a young age thus giving them little opportunity to get an education and become their own person. Another issue besides the sickness of all the older men marrying these young girls is that they are basically living off of welfare--so we as taxpayers are funding these children and women who have no other means of support.

Once these people are in this community they are taught not to trust outsiders so they continue for generations doing the same thing. They are so removed from everyday life that we know, I am afraid a lot of them will go running back since they know no other way of life. Totally sad.

can not agree with you more!! that is what I was trying to get accross in my post

[imaguy]

All good comments. I think the main issue here for most are the children. If a messed up older man is doing something ILLEGAL, then he should be brought be a jury and sent to jail. Otherwise leave them alone. Brainwashing occurs in ALL areas of society. If you put your kids in front of the TV they are being brainwashed. It's all relative.

And as for CPS, im tired of their power. Please tell me that we are still governed by the constitution?? They have the power to remove your children, if someone makes a complaint. No jury, no judge, no due process. If you heard about the women in Illinois. She left he child in the car for 3 minutes. It was cold and rainy and walked her other child and her friend to drop money into the salvation army bucket. She was arrested in front of her children and brought to jail. That is my concern. The intrusion of our government into the private lives of it's citizens. Government has a place, and it NEEDS to protect the innocent (of course unborn children don't count which is a shame, but that's a WHOLE other topic).

My bottom line: If a crime is being committed then do something, put them in jail. If not then leave these people alone. Just because we think and act differently is not cause enough to force them to live like us. We are a diverse country.

Smiles Again!! Thanks for keeping it civil. It's nice to discuss something and not resort to insults or foul language!! AWESOME!!

Nathan

[imaguy]

Originally Posted by mjloves2shop

....if I allowed her to marry someone over twice her age and older than myself ~ well that just seems REALLY wrong! Let's also keep in mind they were "allowed", they were "forced" to marry.

Where are these mothers when these girls are being forced to marry? The previous leader is in prison for aiding in a rape of a young girl that was married and refused to have sex with her husband. He is also wanted in another state on 8 charges which also include incest ~ nothing is off limits for them!

The only thing I would say (and I agree that under my standards it's TOTALLY WRONG) But many years ago in this country and even today in other countries arranged marriages happen every day. Young women have been marrying older men for centuries. Just because WE feel it's wrong doesn't mean it is. If their was a law against it then that's one thing, but just our moral opinion isn't enough. In Texas the law say's you must be 16 y/o to marry. If that law was broken then the offender should be punished. We cannot judge anothers way of life.

In a FREE country, if you want to join a cult, then do it. You'll probably end up suffering, but it's not only your choice it's your RIGHT. As for the girls/boys born into this cult, it's no different then my (future) children. We attend a Vineyard Church, pretty open, but sometimes loud and extremely involved, and I love it. But if someone thought that it was a cult, would that give them the right (just because of moral opinion) to take my children away?

Anyways, I have really enjoyed this discussion!!! Thanks for reading my boring and young 26 y/o opinions!!!

Nathan

[wendy1214]

Originally Posted by lesliec

Everyone is talking about how brainwashed and what ever that this Mormon society is, and I am not going to defend their beliefs, but I want you all to sit back and think about the society that we live in. We live in a society that has been brainwashed into thinking that sex before marriage is acceptable, especially if you are in "love". We are in a society that thinks it is ok to gossip. I could go on and on, but I hear my babies waking up, but really look at how morally unstable our whole culture is before you go judging one small sector. I am not defending them, but our entire culture is nothing of what our Creator wants for us.

Believe me when i say I am NOT generalizing the Mormon society, my SIL and several neighbors are Mormon, and they are great people. What I am saying is that it is the extremists in these type of "cult" sects that take such complete control over those living in the "compound" Like David Karesh (sp) and those that "teach" about religion using it as there excuse to live the way they do. They may truly believe what they are doing is right, and yea, people can make choices, but when that is the only way you know, you were born there and secluding from the outside world, then yes, they have you brainwashed.
Everyone who has a religion has their own thoughts/values, some extreme, some not. These people- in the cult like settings- go way overboard.

[wendy1214]

As for the state getting involved- if children are at risk, then yes, they should watch out for their welfare. But, then again, what happened to separation of Church and State? Is that the argument the sect will use to hide under? Who knows.

[imaguy]

Originally Posted by wendy1214

As for the state getting involved- if children are at risk, then yes, they should watch out for their welfare. But, then again, what happened to separation of Church and State? Is that the argument the sect will use to hide under? Who knows.

Here is what i found on Wiki...thought it would be helpful:

In the United States, separation of church and state is often identified with the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…" The phrase "building a wall of separation between church and state" was written by the U.S. President Thomas Jefferson in a January 1, 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptist Association. (The phrase separation of church and state is found no where in the constitution)
----
Under the United States Constitution, the treatment of religion by the government is broken into two clauses: the establishment clause and the free exercise clause. While both are discussed in the context of the separation of church and state, it is more often discussed in regard to whether certain state actions would amount to an impermissible government establishment of religion.

The phrase was also mentioned in an eloquent letter written by President John Tyler on July 10, 1843.

The United States Supreme Court has referenced the separation of church and state metaphor more than 25 times, first in 1878. In Reynolds, the Court denied the free exercise claims of Mormons in the Utah territory who claimed polygamy was an aspect of their religious freedom.

In other words, the Supreme Court has made the Separation of Church and State the law of the land.