[poshpoodle]

I agree- I too am so happy that we are not bashing one another- I know that sometimes the conversation gets a little heated, but since we are all so different and have differing beliefs it is great that this thread is still here!

[bette]

Originally Posted by targetaddict

Ok, just a few things:



4. In Christianity, you are either hot or cold. You cannot be lukewarm.

I disagree with this. I was raised in the church, I am a Christian, but I also do not believe everything the church or the Bible tells me. I believe that there are some very important issues that we as Christians are just expected to accept without question. I don't think it makes me any less of a Christian for doing so. I know that the books of the Bible were chosen by the Catholic Church, which I personally believe has been involved in many sinful and unethical things throughout history. So I do question it at times as the complete guide to living a good life. We discussed this in the thread regarding the transgender man who is pregnant. I do believe that God intended for His word to be spread to all, but I also believe that the church as a whole tailors His Word to fit their own needs. I guess this would make me lukewarm. I just refuse to allow someone else to dictate everything about how I should live my life, that someone being the church. I have family who attend church religiously, go on retreats, preach to everyone within earshot, but then they live their lives in ways I don't think are very Christian, all under the guise that as long as they repent on Sundays they will be forgiven. I don't attend church anymore because I got so tired of the hypocritical behavior. I think we should live our lives in a truthful, just manner, not judging others and I wasn't getting that from the church. I think that Christians as a group tend to be very judgemental under the veil of promoting Christianity. I just wish people would learn to accept others beliefs without trying to convert them to their own. I think this is what the book promotes, a greater understanding of all people and a compassion for everyone regardless of their beliefs. I know that as Christians we are suppose to spread the Word, but if we are ever going to see a brighter future, we need to learn to accept everyone's beliefs.

I love you everybody! Thanks for the great discussion!

[LACECOUPONS]

I do not watch oprah,

[GrannyGodley]

True, Bette, we can accept other beliefs as being held by other individuals. However, if we as Christians truly believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, we can only accept those other beliefs as being owned by the other individuals. We can not accept them as being part and parcel of faith for everyone. As in, "Whatever you want to believe is the truth is the truth is fine with me."

Christians need to be intolerant and have a degree of tunnel vision as it relates to the person and work of Jesus Christ for the atonement of sins. No we are not intolerant of individuals because they have beliefs that differ from ours and no we do not persecute individuals because they differ from us in beliefs. We simply learn to get along with and respect each other as individuals. However, I do have a concern for the souls of individuals who are not in accord with a belief system that honors Jesus Christ as the Savior of mankind and their redeemer.

Sadly, your story of encountering judgmental Christians and Christians who establish their own set of rules and regulations is not isolated. It happens. Sadly, it happens.

[poshpoodle]

I agree with Granny Godley- Judgement is a human action that unfortunatley happens all too often, I am sorry you were judged by others.
It always hurts when someone is judgemental. But please remeber that even though we are CHristians we too make mistakes- we are still human. We of course need to be even more careful of how we react and respond and behave- becuase as Christians we too are judged.

[targetaddict]

Originally Posted by bette

I disagree with this. I was raised in the church, I am a Christian, but I also do not believe everything the church or the Bible tells me. I believe that there are some very important issues that we as Christians are just expected to accept without question. I don't think it makes me any less of a Christian for doing so. I know that the books of the Bible were chosen by the Catholic Church, which I personally believe has been involved in many sinful and unethical things throughout history. So I do question it at times as the complete guide to living a good life. We discussed this in the thread regarding the transgender man who is pregnant. I do believe that God intended for His word to be spread to all, but I also believe that the church as a whole tailors His Word to fit their own needs. I guess this would make me lukewarm. I just refuse to allow someone else to dictate everything about how I should live my life, that someone being the church. I have family who attend church religiously, go on retreats, preach to everyone within earshot, but then they live their lives in ways I don't think are very Christian, all under the guise that as long as they repent on Sundays they will be forgiven. I don't attend church anymore because I got so tired of the hypocritical behavior. I think we should live our lives in a truthful, just manner, not judging others and I wasn't getting that from the church. I think that Christians as a group tend to be very judgemental under the veil of promoting Christianity. I just wish people would learn to accept others beliefs without trying to convert them to their own. I think this is what the book promotes, a greater understanding of all people and a compassion for everyone regardless of their beliefs. I know that as Christians we are suppose to spread the Word, but if we are ever going to see a brighter future, we need to learn to accept everyone's beliefs.

I love you everybody! Thanks for the great discussion!

Revelations 3:15, I know everything you have done, and you are not cold or hot. I wish you were either one or the other. 16But since you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will spit you out of my mouth.

Please feel free to read the entire chapter to see it's not taken out of context.

To see a brighter future, we do not need to learn to accept everyone's beliefs. I will tolerate that other's have different beliefs but my hope alone is in Christ Jesus, and not in any action, belief, or free thinking man.

Christians are sinners, one and all. With all due respect, that is what we need to be accepting of. I am most definitely a sinner, and I do so every single day! It's by the grace of God through Jesus Christ that I am saved from this sin. Sorry if it appears hypocritical to you, but while on this earth, my spirit's willing, but my flesh is weak! And, I go to church every single Sunday, too. I probably sin a half a dozen times on the way there. I never claimed to be perfect because I am a Christian and go to church.

I have witnessed and probably even taken part in lots of this judgement that you speak of. It's a crying shame and, again, another sin. It's unfortunate that this is the sort of thing that turns people off to Christianity and the church, but we live in a fallen world. It's too much to expect perfection in any Christian community.

[bette]

And yet so much of the world would say they have the same concern for our souls. Only 33% of the world calls itself Christian. I guess the intolerance is one reason why we are hated by so many different people and nationalities. I truly feel that if a person leads a good life, does good for others, and makes a difference in the world, they will be rewarded in the end, regardless of what they believe in. Noone will ever convince me that a Muslim or Buddhist who dedicates their lfe to helping others and making the world a better place will go to Hell simply because they didn't believe in Jesus Christ. I really hate to think of a God so vengeful. I want to believe that our job here on Earth is to help others and leave our mark in some way.

[marbear]

I am going to put a link to a sermon that our pastor gave that really affirmed the Bible for me. I know this may be off topic, but I feel a need to respond (as I will always) to the statement that the Bible is not wholly inspired by God. That's all

"The Bible Speaks for Itself"

[marbear]

I 100 percent agree that there are hypocrites in Christianity...as in every religion. People are not perfect. I grew up with a man as my Sunday School teacher who molested several girls in my church and the Devil allowed that to put a bitterness in my heart about church-going. One day after my son was born I saw that the devil had been working through that man to hurt those girls and turn many of the youth off to God and I was not going to let my children and myself miss out on what a close, intimate relationship with God will bring to your life. I am nowhere close to perfect and it was hard for me to accept that I have be a witness NOW while I am imperfect and not wait until I am perfect to stand up for God...and I just have to pray more good comes out than bad because I would hate for my behavior to turn off someone to an abudant, eternal life through Christ.

[bette]

May I ask why entire books of the Bible were omitted? If it truly is wholly inspired by God, why did those who brought it all together feel it was alright to leave out several key books?

[marbear]

First off, they were written way way after the actual events recorded in the Bible transpired. The Koran was also written way way after events it talks about. Did you read the link?

[marbear]

Also, I have to say even a Muslim would probably disagree that Allah and Jehovah are the same. We did a study on this by a Muslim scholar and he was like "oh no way is it the same!" Sometimes we like to say these things because it makes us feel better to feel like all people are really just believing the same thing with different names, but I do not believe this for one minute.

Allah is "the Moon God" and Muslims consider Jesus a prophet and believe it is blasphemy for God to have a son. The Koran says Allah is always "as close as your jugular vein", and this is not the same as the God I serve.

[GrannyGodley]

God chose the men through whom He would speak the words He wanted in our Bible. Also, He gave Holy men of God wisdom to discern that which was truth and that which was not. Therefore, the 66 books of the Bible contained in the New and Old Testament are considered to be the canon of Scripture. I realize there is much controversary on this topic and I can not speak more fully on it because I am not qualified to do so.

[GrannyGodley]

During the times of the Pharaohs in Egypt, there was a Pharaoh named Amenhotep ( I have probably misspelled his name since it has been a long, long time since I studied this.). The Egyptians worshiped many gods one of which was the sun god. Amenhotep believed that there was one supreme god and that the sun god was the supreme god, so he chose to worship this one and only god. And he led his people in this belief though the priests did not agree. (I hope I am not "mis-remembering this.)

There are those that teach and believe that the worship of a supreme being as god is the same as worshiping Jehovah (God the Father). That this is the same as Allah, etc. As marbar pointed out, this is not so.

[bette]

Actually, many transcripts have been found that have been carbon dated to be the exact same age as the Bible. In fact, the Dead Sea Scrolls included all the books of the Bible and more. Scholars believe that these transcripts may are much closer to being the original text, as the wording differs from that in our present Bible in ways that change entire translations. I did read your link BTW.

As far as the Muslim religion, I do appreciate your explanations, and I was aware of who Allah is. My best friends are Muslim and I have had countless discussions with them regarding their beliefs. I don't feel that everyone believes Jesus was God's son, or even that he existed, but I feel that if they worship Allah as their God, who am I to tell them they are going to Hell? Judaism does not believe Jesus was the Messiah either, and He was a Jew. Do I believe the Jews will all go to Hell? Absolutely not! They are God's chosen, but as a Christian you would condemn their beliefs because they don't belive in Jesus as Saviour.

[mpayne]

Wow, what a thread today!

1st I'd like to thank Posh for starting this thread. It's rare to find people who will stand up for their beliefs and stick to it despite what the crowd says.

I agree with everything that GG has said, as well. There are too many "lukewarm" Christians today. I have been as guilty of it as anyone else, and I constantly have to check myself for this. The only way to NOT be lukewarm is to be in the Word and in constant communication with God on a daily/hourly/minute basis (aka "Pray without ceasing")

As for why the books of the Bible were omitted... well think about it this way - how big do you think a book would be that covered thousands of years - every detail of everything that happened from Adam & Eve to the Crucifixion? Pretty doggone BIG, I'd think. Mind you, that's far from being a scholarly explanation - it's just mine.

I love the Bible - I think it's the greatest book ever written. If non-Christians read it, I think they would agree. It's got everything: action, suspense, violence, murder, miracles, and even ~gasp~ sex! Some of the sauciest stories ever told are in the Good Book! I don't think Christians are meant to live boring lives, only to judge others. I think Jesus came to give us JOY, and "give it abundantly"! My heart breaks for lost souls, as GG said, because I do believe that they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven if they do not believe in Jesus Christ. This has been HARD for me to accept - I have family members and many friends who are not saved. My heart also breaks for those who don't know Jesus because they are suffering needless pain, and missing out on SO MUCH LOVE! Why would anyone choose NOT to accept that?? Why would anyone say "I don't want the most awesome love in heaven and earth in my life. Thanks, but I'll pass!" It boggles my mind.

I grew up in a Southern Baptist church, very "religious" home (except for my alcoholic father who was not a Christian, but a non-practicing Catholic). My favorite saying is: It's not a Religion, it's a RELATIONSHIP. My family was very "religious", but didn't have much of a "relationship" with Jesus. I saw hypocrisy and lies and affairs and everything else going on in the church that went on in the "world", because as someone else has said here - we're all humans! We are all sinners. I turned away from the church for many years, but I never turned from God / Jesus. I don't think you have to sit in a pew every week to be a Christian, not by any means. But I think that a great church family is so awesome when you find one that you fit with, you will WANT to be there - surrounded by others who love you unconditionally - hopefully trying to as Christ does. That is what our goal should be as Christians - to become more like Christ. To love the unlovable. To hang out with the sinners like us - the "tax collectors and prostitutes". Who ever heard of Jesus only sticking with his friends/disciples all the time? He was always wandering off to find the lost! That's what we should be doing - not condemning people, but showing them a better way. As my pastor always says "I'm just one beggar trying to tell another beggar where to find some bread." If you find a good restaurant, you tell your friends about it. If you find a God that loves you unconditionally - despite whatever you've done in your life - why wouldn't you tell your friends about that??


Shoot, I'm on a roll now... I'll just shut up now. I love AFC and the fact that we can all discuss these things and learn from one another!

[mpayne]

Oops, I killed the thread.

[poshpoodle]

No you didn't- I appreciate all you have said and for yoru input to the thread!
As far as being in Church every Sunday, I have not always gone to church the way I should and to be truthful am ashamed that I do not read my Bible the way I know I should. This thread and posting it has made me realize I need to be reading God's word so that I know better how to respond to things- you guys that can quote scripture are amazing- I hope that by realizing some of my short comings as a Christian and not being more aware of GOd's word I will read the Bible as I should- afterall I want to be a good example to my children as well! So this thread has definitely helped me see some things where I am lacking- and I started the thread- That is the way God works though!

[targetaddict]

Originally Posted by bette

I don't feel that everyone believes Jesus was God's son, or even that he existed, but I feel that if they worship Allah as their God, who am I to tell them they are going to Hell? Judaism does not believe Jesus was the Messiah either, and He was a Jew. Do I believe the Jews will all go to Hell? Absolutely not! They are God's chosen, but as a Christian you would condemn their beliefs because they don't belive in Jesus as Saviour.

Great news! You don't have to tell anyone that they are going to hell. These are not my rules or the rules of any man; these are God's rules and He is always right and just. It's not up to us to decide or pass judgement. God has taken that burden, and I gladly give it to him. He has, however, commanded that we go to all the nations and share the Good News of Jesus Christ.

[poshpoodle]

I have to say- sometimes when I have a huge weight on my shoulders and am not sure how I am going to get through a situation I try to remind myself that God does not want me to worry. God wants me to have Faith in him- so I tell God that whatever my problem is I give it to him, it is in his hands- I know he knows the outcome and there is no sense in me worrying. What a relief it is to know that I can ALWAYS count on JESUS! I have to admit though, sometimes it is hard- especially when it has something to deal with my children, I do not want to let GOd handle my problems...as a mother it is hard to let go and let God. But I have to remind myself that I am stressing unecessarily because God has it all under control. I may not give it to him immediatley- but when I finally do- it is amazing the relief I feel! I remind myself how much I love my children, but God loves them more than me- he created them- and trusted them with me. When I pray for my children and am having a hard time letting go- I picture them in the palm of God's enormous hand- craddling them- and I am at ease. I tell God- "you gave them to me - the most wonderful gift I have ever received, but now I give them back to you"- it is hard at times- but amazing that he loves us all so much he has taken your burdens- if you will just let him have them- he is always here for ALL OF US!

[mpayne]

posh, check out Matthew 6:25-34 I struggle with the same things, being a parent. But these verses bring so much peace. HTH!

[poshpoodle]

Thank you for the scriptures- I will check them out!

[jmwolff]

Originally Posted by A20SomethingMother

Well, I really dont' know where I stand on this topic. I grew up in a religious family, but I am not religious anymore. I have serious problems with the Bible, but I am very open minded to the fact that every person has their own right to believe and follow in whatever religion they wish. I, personally, don't believe in God. I just don't buy it. Say what you will, but that is just how I feel. Now, like I said, I do not criticize anyone else for believing in something I just don't. But, along with that, everyone is allowed to believe in what they wish---if 2 million and some people are reading and believing whatever this is Oprah believes, then that is their choice.

I don't watch Oprah myself either. But, even if I did, I wouldn't let something like this factor into my decision making, just like I don't disown my friends or family who are religous when I'm not. I am an open person and very welcoming and understanding. If our beliefs on certain issues are different, then that's cool--there are always other things about a person that I can relate to and that factor into my decision to have them in my life other than religion.

I agree.

some food for thought, many times in e-mails forwards like this alot of the more alarming "quotes" may be out of context...so maybe if you read the entire paragraph the info quoted may not be as alarming as the 7 word excerpt is.

Either way, every one can belive what they want...

[staviles]

There was a huge storm and the flood waters started rising..a homeowner saw the rising water and looked out his door and these people passed by on a canoe and told him to climb in that they would take him to safety and he said, "no, no, my God will save me" so the water kept rising and he had to climb up to his second story and looked out his window..some people passed by on a boat and told him to get in that they would take him to safety...he said "no, no, my God will save me"..so the waters kept rising and he had to climb up to the roof and a helicopter came by and begged him to get in so that they could take him to safety and he yelled "no, no, my God will save me"...well the man dies and goes up to Heaven and sees God and says, "God, what happened? I'm down there telling people that you will save me, I put all my faith in you and yet I drowned!" and God replied, "my son, I sent you two boats and a helicopter, what more did you want"

Just wanted to add my two cents worth..while I have faith in God and know that he is the true controller of my life and also place my life in his hands every day, (worries, cares and good times)..I know that he has sent us tools here on Earth (including the Bible) to help us on our way..if books like this help people find God or even to begin discussing faith and religion, then they can't be bad..noone can tell another person what kind of faith to have or how much of it is necessary for that person..it is a very personal thing! I haven't read the book and probably won't...but not because of it's teachings or thoughts, but because I can hardly find the time to pay my bills and call my parents..and as for Oprah, while she is a figure of authority, but each person makes up their own mind..in the end it is up to everyone's free will and choice, because in the end..Oprah won't be standing in front of my maker responding for the way I lived my life...I will!

[mama2gavin]

I would like to state that you can be a lukewarm Sunday Christian. It is AKA a Hypocrite, and those that are lukewarm are the ones that make people think Christianity a joke. We all sin, but the saints get up and dust themselves off.

Another point. There have been a few books of the Bible that were omitted. I am not sure if we will ever know all the books that never made it into the Bible, but here are a few.
1 Esdras
2 Esdras
Additions to Esther
1 Macabees
2 Macabees
Tobias
Judith
Wisdom
Sirach
Baruch
Epistle of Jeremiah
Susanna
Prayer of Azariah
Prayer of Manasseh
Bel and the Dragon
Laodicean

If you would like to know more, go here: The Apocrypha Index